An Interview with David V. Hicks, Author of Norms & Nobility

Episode Overview

• The host introduces esteemed guest David Hicks, author of the foundational classical education text, "Norms and Nobility," and Hicks shares his personal journey into education.
• The conversation offers a deep dive into the classical meaning of "myth" as a symbolic story that reveals eternal truths, contrasting it with the destructive nature of modern ideologies.
• Hicks explains the Socratic or dialectical method as a humble, inquiry-based approach to learning that stands in opposition to the dogmatic imposition of abstract theories.
• The discussion concludes with a personal reflection on the transformative power of suffering, positing that it is essential for the "birth of consciousness" and genuine learning.

Key Concepts

• "Norms and Nobility": David Hicks's book is presented as a cornerstone text for the classical education movement, comparable in significance to C.S. Lewis's The Abolition of Man.
• The Power of Mentorship: Hicks's own educational path was profoundly shaped by the devout and brilliant teachers he encountered at his Christian boarding school and universities.
• The Classical Definition of Myth: A myth is not an untrue story, but a symbolic narrative about a unique, unrepeatable event that reveals continually repeated, eternal truths about reality.
• Destructive Modern "Myths": Abstract, theoretical ideologies (e.g., Soviet communism, flawed urban renewal) function as harmful myths because they are detached from reality and lead to real-world tragedies.
• The Dialectical Method: Also known as the Socratic method, this is a "humble-minded spirit of inquiry" that prioritizes questioning and conversation to lead students toward truth, rather than imposing a doctrine.
• Suffering and Consciousness: The idea that suffering is not merely a negative experience but a necessary catalyst for personal growth, learning, and the development of a deeper self-awareness.

Quotes

• At 0:01 - "Welcome to Classical Education, a podcast for those who believe in rediscovering the art of asking questions, engaging in conversation, and attending to the ideas at the heart of well-ordered teaching and learning." - The podcast's opening voiceover, outlining its core philosophy.
• At 0:38 - "This is one of my most exciting moments of my life because... this book, Norms and Nobility, is the staple of classical education along with Abolition of Man." - The host expresses her deep admiration for David Hicks and establishes the significance of his work.
• At 1:29 - "Well, I got into it the way we all get into it. I went to school in the first grade." - David Hicks begins his story with a touch of humor before detailing his educational background.
• At 1:58 - "Very wonderful, devout, in some cases brilliant teachers." - Hicks describes the high caliber and deep impact of the educators at his boarding school.
• At 26:56 - "it's my moral obligation to kill you." - The speaker explains the inverted morality of certain revolutionary ideologies, where killing someone based on their social class was seen as a moral duty.
• At 28:17 - "A myth is not a story, as some believe, that is untrue. Nor is it a story, as others believe, that is an historical account of something that actually happened once upon a time." - The speaker begins to define "myth" by clarifying common misconceptions.
• At 28:46 - "A myth is a story told in symbolic language describing historically improbable and unrepeatable manifestations of continually repeated eternal truths about the nature of reality." - The speaker offers his formal definition of myth from his book, "The Stones Cry Out."
• At 29:46 - "People were being killed on the basis of some theoretical thinking." - The speaker connects the abstract, ideological "myths" of the 20th century to real-world tragedies.
• At 36:33 - "The inquiry approach is really a humble-minded approach." - The speaker contrasts the dogmatic application of modern theories with the classical method of open-ended, Socratic questioning.
• At 1:03:45 - "There is no birth of consciousness without suffering." - The speaker shares a quote from Nietzsche that has deeply influenced him, reflecting that suffering leads to personal growth and deeper understanding.
• At 1:04:14 - "I realize that there was really not just beauty in my suffering, but there was learning, there was growth of—there was birth of consciousness." - Reflecting on his own life, the speaker explains the transformative power of hardship.

Takeaways

• Re-evaluate the term "myth"; rather than dismissing myths as falsehoods, understand them as powerful narratives that convey profound, eternal truths.
• Be critical of abstract ideologies that are detached from reality, as they can function as dangerous "myths" with devastating real-world consequences.
• Adopt a "humble-minded spirit of inquiry" in learning and conversation, prioritizing open-ended questions over the dogmatic acceptance of theories.
• Recognize the immense and lasting impact that dedicated and inspiring teachers can have on a student's intellectual and personal formation.
• View personal hardships not just as obstacles, but as essential opportunities for growth, learning, and the development of deeper consciousness.
• Practice finding the universal truths embedded within unique, specific stories and events, just as classical myths do.